Open forum with Sen. Leila M. de Lima
"A Forum on Women's Life, Dignity, and Democracy"

Miriam College

October 14, 2016

Audience Member (AM)1: Katulad po ng nasabi ni Ms. Garcia kanina na parang ang tanong ay kung magiging alitaptap ba tayo o magiging bubuyog, parang gusto ko lamang po magbigay ng opinyon ninyo na kapag po alitaptap ay mag-isa ay hinahangin lamang.

Kaya po ang tanong ko, naniniwala po ba kayo na ang kailangan natin ay collective action para sa lahat ng problema na kinakahrap, hindi lang po ng kababaihan, pero maging ng ating bansa, mula sa mga problema sa social classes, mga ganun pong bagay, pero, the focus is the women and what we are facing now. Do you believe that we need that?

De Lima: Absolutely, collective action. But when I say collective action, I'm not sure if it's a mass action with the likes of let's say EDSA 1, EDSA 2 or what. Not that. The collective action should be increased awareness of the burning issues besetting our country, not only extrajudicial killings, as you were saying, not only about women's rights, women's dignity, not only about human rights violations, but also all other pressing social and political problems our country is facing today.

And there are many of them, and especially what I can see is a real threat to our democracy. You just have to really observe what's happening. You just have to listen to the various pronouncements of the President.

Hindi lang yung tungkol sa mga pang-iinsulto niya sa akin, pang-iinsulto niya sa UN, sa president ng United States, sa EU, etc. But also yung mga pronouncements niya ngayon about the peace process, about trying to foster an independent foreign policy, which is supposed to be the case because that is what is mandated in our Constitution--independent foreign policy. But what is clearly a very radical shift of foreign relations from being pro-US to pro-China or pro-Russia. We should be very discerning and vigilant of what is happening.

Of course, foremost of the problems is still poverty. Correct? And that is why after 100 days of this administration, look at how and what former President Fidel V. Ramos has said. There is a letdown in the performance of the administration dahil maganda sana yung mga promises of change during the campaign period and during the early days of the administration, but because of the total focus and obsession on the war on drugs--and may I add, the war on De Lima--nakalimutan niya yung mga iba pa na mas importante.

I'm not saying that the drug problem is not an important and pressing issue. It is and we are all for it. Kaya lang mali ho yung method na ginagawa nila. So, so many missed opportunities. He could have done...he could have been doing a lot of good for our country given his charisma, given his strong leadership, and strong political will, pero mukhang misdirected, misguided because of the kind of mentality and psychology the President has. Thank you.

AM 1: Thank you po.

Moderator Ms. Lynda Garcia (MLG): There's a question here. Senator, what do you think is the situation of women in politics, in general? I'd like to repeat that: what do you think is the situation of women in politics, in general?

De Lima: There is a lot of potential among women in politics now. Kasi katulad ng sinabi ko kanina, number 7 ho dapat tayo as the most gender-equal nation. That is actually a recognition that in our country, there are more and more women leaders in all strata, in all levels of government, in all branches of government, from the Executive, Legislative, and even Judiciary. There are more and more judges. There are more and more women prosecutors. There are more and more women members in the House of Representatives. And in the Senate, it's still low, but it's already 25 percent. Six female members of the Senate, but underutilized pa ho the potentials of really coming out strong as a sector. Of course, there are noted women leaders--my colleague Sen. Risa Hontiveros, Sen. Loren Legarda. They also have a lot of advocacies, pro-women advocacies and some other congresswomen in the House of Representatives, pero medyo kulang pa ho.

And I appreciate na isa po sila sa una rin na mga pumalag when there was this threat to show the alleged sex video before that House inquiry because they could feel, they are so outraged as many of you were, which led to that #EveryWoman posting, and which went viral.

So kulang pa ho, although there's so much potential there. There is strength among women leaders, and with a very good, a very decent, and a very conscientious, and dedicated vice president, VP Leni Robredo. Thank you.

AM 2: To be honest, I don't know...I'm kind of disappointed with everything, I mean the current issues nowadays because...

De Lima: You have every reason to be disappointed.

AM 2: You don't know what's the truth and the lies anymore. So I was just wondering if do you think everything that is happening right now is necessary evil? And what do you think is your purpose in the Philippine society?

De Lima: Thank you. Those are very good questions. Okay. Necessary evil. Yes there are sectors who are saying that the spate of killings now are a necessary evil because you know we have been plagued by this drug menace. It's a big problem. Although, as I have said, we're far from being a narco-state. That's just part of their propaganda. That's just part of, you know, mind conditioning people, poisoning the minds of the people. But the drug menace is a big problem and they say that the killing of the bad guys--suspected drug pushers, users, and traffickers--are a necessary evil.

I do not subscribe to that view. There are better ways to address the drug problem. Better and more legal, and more moral than killing them without due process. So it's not an acceptable reasoning or argument for me that killings are a necessary evil.

You know, the first casualty in this so-called war on drugs is truth. It is truth because they're saying, yung sinabi nga narco-state na daw tayo, which is not true. And then, these lies about Sen. De Lima being the mother of drug lords, the Bilbid drug trade queen, they know that is a big lie. But why are they propagating it. Ano bang mapapala nila? All of the sudden I'm now the Bilibid drug trade queen or I'm the mother of drug lords. But according to the President, my being elected as a senator has transformed this country into a narco-state.

What? After all what I did. Ako nga nakadiskubre ng mga kababalaghan na yan diyan sa Bilibid. Nag-raid kami nung Dec. 15, you know how difficult it was to plan that raid? Nadiskubre ko yung mga gawain nila dun, yung mga mararangya, mga luxurious lifestyle ng mga kubols na yan ng Bilbid 19 and other drug lords.

Everything has been turned around. So these are lies. Truth has become the first casualty on this so-called war on drugs. They're making us believe that the best solution is to kill the small time, poor drug pushers, drug users. Kaya ganito ako kagalit po. Kaya ko ginagawa ito. That's why I called the Senate inquiry.

Tignan niyo naman, a great majority of those being killed as of now is almost 3,800 ay yung mga maliliit lang na mga tao, the poor, the poorest of the poor, the ones living in the slum communities and the depressed communities, mga naka-tsinelas, minsan wala pang tsinelas, na walang mga abogado, walang mga bodyguards, walang mga high-powered firearms kung hindi yung mga paltik lang kuno na mga .38 caliber na alam ko naman karamihan diyan pinaplanta lang ng mga nagre-raid.

Maniniwala ba kayo na karamihan daw ng mga namamatay po ay lumaban? When you have a whole team of fully armed, heavily armed men, minsan hindi mo na alam kung pulis ba yan o ano kasi yung mga nare-receive ho naming mga reports, they are in civilian clothes with masks. These are the death squads. Tapos sasabihin nila that is important, that is necessary. What a lie. Why are they not going after the big drug lords and their protectors?

Hindi po ako ang protektor! May mga ilan diyan na tunay na protektor, but certainly not me. I have nothing to do with the drug trade except to try to defeat and destroy the ones being operated right inside the New Bilibid Prison.

Lies, lies, lies! I hope you understand kung bakit I become emotional once in a while. I used to...you know, dati I can still control my emotions nung una, but not anymore because of the sheer evilness of what they're doing to me.

Nasaan yung pera? They say 12 to 15 billion pesos. Where is the money? Wala po akong nakaw na yaman. Wala akong tagong yaman. Wala akong kayamanan na galing sa droga. But all those so-called witnesses, who are they? Mga drug convicts, yung iba sa kanila kasama sila sa Bilibid 19.

Si Jaybee Sebastian, nung una ayaw niyang magtestigo. Alam ko po yan. I also have my own sources. Nabasa ko po yung mga text ng kanyang asawa one or two weeks before nag-testify siya...kailan ba siya nag-testify, just several days ago. The wife was pleading him, 'Sundin mo na yung pinapagawa sa iyo, mag-testify ka na against De Lima because si De Lima lang naman ang gusto nila ang habol nila. Maawa ka sa pamilya natin. Yun na ang sinasabi ng mga kaibigan natin. Sundin mo na, gawin mo na yung gusto nilang ipagawa sayo.'

Ano yung gusto nilang ipagawa sa kanya? Lie against me. Point to me as a beneficiary of the drug money.

And then that so-called riot happened. Ayaw ni Jaybee Sebastian nung una kasi may pinakita raw na draft affidavit according to my very A1 source. May certain NBI investigators, merong general, and then nandun yung si Dongail--another BIlibid 19, yung isa sa mga umatake kay Jaybee Sebastian during that so-called riot. Napaluha daw yan si Jaybee Sebastian nung nabasa yung pini-feed sa kanyang affidavit pointing to me. And he was saying, 'Hindi ko ito magagawa.' Pero right then and there, he was threatened by that general. 'Papatayin ka namin.'

So a few days later, nangyari yung riot. He was injured. Iba yung namatay, si Tony Co--another Bilbid 19. Two other inmates got seriously wounded--si Peter Co, saka si Vicente Sy. Kaya nga si Peter Co...nag-testify na rin ba yan sa Peter Co? They have no choice. Papatayin sila. So what is this? What is this?

People are already asking, how are you? Paano ka na...kaya mo pa ba yan? Nakakayanan mo pa ba yan? Hindi ko alam. Basta araw-araw pag gumigising po ako, buhay pa naman ako, at nag-iisip pa naman ako. Hindi pa naman ako nag under nervous breakdown. I think I'm far from it. But do you think...the question is not even, do you think that is right? It's not anymore the basic question here.

Bakit, bakit ginagawa nila ito? Sa sobrang galit sa akin ng Pangulo na yan. Hindi niya nagustuhan yung ginawa ko noong 2009. Ako mismo, kasama yung CHR, pumunta kami sa Davao para imbestigahan ang Davao Death Squad. We held a series of public hearings. In one of those hearing, pinatawag ho namin siya as then mayor, at pinahiya ko po siya publicly during that hearing. He has not forgiven. He has not forgotten that.

Kasi nga even long before yung campaign period sa mga local talk shows niya, may regular talk show yan sa Davao, madalas din daw po akong naaalala at madalas din akong murahin.

And now, malay ko ba na magiging Pangulo siya. And malay din niya po na magiging senadora ako. And now, after warning Congress: do not interfere with my war on drugs early on, when he assumed office, remember that? And here I am, nandiyan na naman si De Lima, nag-initiate na naman ng inquiry diyan sa killings.

That is personal vendetta, yung ginagawa niya. I have nothing personal against him--whether you believe it or not. But he is becoming too personal, using, and abusing, and misuing the state apparatus for his insidious end of destroying me at all costs.

I'm sorry that I went beyond the subject of your query. I just had to...

AM 2: No, it's a good thing that I heard your side of the story.

De Lima: Thank you.

AM 3: So another question here is: Senator, given your experience in the DOJ and the current issues and challenges your facing, what is justice for you?

De Lima: Justice is now illusory for me. I'm a champion of justice, a firm and passionate champion of justice; just like being a champion and advocate for human rights or respect for human rights. In all my capacities, because I've always believe justice and human rights go together, they come together--without human rights there could be no justice; without justice, there can be no human rights--so always in my capacity, as much as I can and to the best of my ability I try to do justice for every man; although, it's humanly impossible for me to attend to all the demands for justice because so many are victims of injustice.

I always pray and try to do justice. As I said, I never imagined that I would now be a victim. And therefore I'm also crying now for justice--justice from all these. And do you think I can attain justice before the DOJ? So justice has become illusory, has become elusive for me in the same manner that many have found it so in this country.

AM 4: Good morning. I'd like to grasp this opportunity to ask your opinion on how we can put our foot down, or how we can stand our ground when...especially from the President or when somebody says anything that we truly do not believe on, and we do not want to be represented this way, how do we go against that social construct our idea that our President has already put out there in the world?

De Lima: Yes, thank you so much, that's why we're having this. This is a platform, as I said, to increase awareness. We should always be vigilant. We should always stand up for our rights. We should start speaking up.

Yan nga ho ang nakakapanlumo, nakaka-frustrate, and nakaka-disturbing. Miski noong 2009, it was disturbing for me that the Davao community considered me as the bad guy when I went there and started investigating the DDS. Para ho sa kanila, tama lang daw yung ginagawa na pinapatay yung mga suspected criminals; although, these are just the petty ones. Wala namang mga pinapatay na malalaking tao eh, mga malalaking drug lords, mga malalaking criminal.

So in that sense that's already what? That's anti-poor. This whole thing, this so-called war on drugs has become anti-poor in the same manner that you know, any re-imposition of the death penalty would also be anti-poor.

Use your creativity. Use your access to communication tools, IT, information technology, social media. Let your voices be heard. Do not abuse or misuse social media. There's so much misuse or abuse of social media nowadays propagating a culture of hate. Don't engage in that culture of hate. Use it positively. Use it always with due regard for the rights of others and for the good of our country. Be very discerning. Be very diligent and vigilant.

MLG: Senator, what could be your biggest and most influential contribution to the law of the Philippines?

De Lima: I have had several, especially during my stint in both the CHR and the DOJ. My contribution to the law is that I try always to uphold the rule of law, and I try always to deliver justice to the victims, the oppressed, the victims of human rights violations during my time in the CHR, and the victims of injustice during my time in the DOJ.

I have supervised several high-profile investigations including the PDAF, including incidents like the Luneta hostage taking incident, the Mamasapano massacre, the Atimonan rubout, and many other high-profile investigations. I always apply the rule of law during my stint.

AM 5: Hello. A relative of mine was also a victim of EJK, but I just want to let you know that I sympathize with you and I believe you, and that you are not alone in this battle.

Despite all the struggles, criticisms, rumors, and death threats that were thrown at you these past few months, and how the Congress, Senate handled and reacted to your case, are you still proud to be called a Filipino?

Because we all know that one of the places not to visit in the Philippines is the comments section?

De Lima: Can I throw back that question to you: Are you still a proud Filipina? Before I answer your question.

AM 5: Despite everything that is happening to our country, I am.

De Lima: Same here. I remain to be proud of my country. Although, there are times in my lowest moments that I entertain such feelings. Bakit ganito, at bakit marami pa rin ang parang nagbubulag-bulagan sa mga nangyayari ngayon? Na nahihiya na nga yung mga ibang kababayan natin doon sa United States every time our President, you know, resorts or indulges in his cussing and cursing episodes. Nahihiya na daw sila. Kinakantiyawan na raw sila. Although, I hope that won't happen also to the United States by putting into office another you know what.

AM 6: So I have two questions, one, knowing that this is one of your toughest fights...

De Lima: This is the toughest, not just one of my toughest, but it's certainly the most difficult that I ever...I feel very lonely at times.

AM 6: So who or what are you holding on to, and how are you coping with this? And second, realizing that this may happen to any woman, what can you say to the young women of this generation? As in, could you give them tips?

De Lima: I draw my strength from the grace of the Lord and my family, especially my children and my grandchildren. My marriage has been annulled, but I have two children. Thirty three-year-old special autistic, his name is Israel. He's handsome and sweet, 33 years old. He's my angel.

And then a 28-year-old law student, but with family already--my second one, Vincent Joshua. Twenty eight years old, studying law at San Beda Alabang. He has two kids--10-year-old Brandon, also a special child; and then 7-year-old Hannah.

I draw strength from them. I think about them when I do this. That's why I need to fight for them, and of course for our country.

How am I coping? I always psych myself. Of course I say daily prayers in the morning and then I psych myself. 'Lord, give me strength.' 'I have to be strong.' 'I have to face whatever else will come to me.'

Because my attitude now is, 'What more can they do to me?' They've already practically throw everything, including the kitchen sink.

Pero hindi naman pupuwede na tumahimik po ako. Hindi naman pupuwede na mag-surrender na lang ako. Alam ko naman na nasa tama po ako. Alam ko naman na nasa panig ko ang katotohanan. So why give them the pleasure of seeing me beaten? No way over my dead body.

Now, we just have to really fight always for our rights. Even as young as you are, always be conscious of that--your own rights, your individual rights, your human rights, and the rights of others. We have to condemn, continue condemning the daily extrajudicial killings--3,800. When will they ever stop?

Let's not wait for the time that it now becomes irreversible. The psychology of our young people has become irreversible because itong mga maliliit, lumalaki sila, our small children are growing under an atmosphere or environment where it is okay to kill and see dead bodies all the time. No way! Sobra po ang magiging epekto for the next generation if everybody starts to believe that it is okay. Anong klase na yan?

So we have to fight for the rights, not only of yourselves, but also the rights of others--especially those who cannot defend themselves because they're poor. We're all fortunate here. We can afford this. We can afford a quality education being given by such institutions as Miriam College. But millions are not as equally fortunate. And they're the targets, they're the victims. They need our help.

AM 7: Good morning po, Senator. I have a lengthy question po. You are a public figure, you have been for so long. Your life is out there for the media and the people to see. Now, my question is, as a public figure how do you think you can use the media to your advantage to communicate the truth and lead the change towards empowering women to change or always question the status quo?

De Lima: All I have to do is just be like what I am now. I'm visible, and then as much as I can, I always oblige media. Not all the time because I cannot do that all the time--I'll be facing media, I'll be answering their questions, whether it's an ambush interview or in a presscon. But I do it oftentimes because I consider media as an ally. I consider media as an important tool in our society for awakening and for discourses, especially ngayong mga panahon. Hindi lang sa Pilipinas, kung hindi sa buong mundo.

Yung mga pangyayari ngayon. I intimidated the phenomenon of populism. It's happening. It's okay to have populist leaders. It's okay to have strong leaders. But it should be the right populist, strong leader. And I cannot the same thing about our President. I don't want to say it publicly, but really, we have a problem with the kind of President that we have.

So media, I hope that media will stay free and independent. Philippine media. Because, you know, anong mangyayari kung media mismo ay mahalo na, maging willing party and participant to what I see as a propaganda.

Medyo mahilig po ang current dispensation sa propaganda eh. Mind conditioning. But are we being conditioned, are the right values being foisted on us? How can it be a right value if they promote killings and promote human rights violations?

MLG: A follow up on that, Senator. May I just ask, I'm a communications professor, so I'm looking at follow up. So what is now your evaluation of media's presentation of yourself? Is it balanced or imbalanced?

De Lima: Some networks, some outlets, media outfits, I consider balanced, I consider objective, impartial, and independent because I don't mind criticisms for as long as these are constructive, and not foul, and not below the belt criticisms. But some, I'm afraid are not. Some media outfits have become also tools for the persecution and for the character assassination because they tend to highlight the lurid parts of the stories instead of the more substantive. And then either headline o sa front page, or page 2, page 3, they tend to highlight the wrong angles of the stories.

Of course, it should always be fact-telling what they see and hear from those so-called witnesses, but sometimes mayroon po akong napapansin may unnecessary focus on certain things just to further portray me as evil.

AM 8: The thing is that, what's happening is our leadership and our country has entered into a Faustian bargain--that Dr. Faust sold his soul to the devil for something. The shortcut is this: fighting the war against drugs and against crime and taking shortcuts under this war has morphed into a war against the poor and against women.

And yet, so many in our society, including some of my relatives, have bought into this bargain.

I speak as a born and bred Protestant, and that means that we are iconoclast, we go against the mainstream. And I'm horrified that my own relatives ha, just sing hallelujahs to the current administration, willing to take the shortcut of killing so that others may live. I mean, they don't understand the contradiction in that.

How can you kill so that others may live?

De Lima: Some justify it as for the common good and that's why they call it necessary evil. Because that is for the common good. But of course, we don't agree with that.

AM 9: There was one phrase you used, the 'sanctity of life' that I think we all have forgotten. And for a Christian, you know, each life is so sacred. And what do you see in the papers? That's what horrifies me. As you said, it reaches a point where it cannot be reversed.

And so, what I have observed now is the inconsistencies and the lack of integrity. Look, you're bargaining for peace in Oslo to end the conflict to save lives. At the same time, you're killing your own people just like that. So where is the logic in that? There's no integrity.

And my last point is this: Two of my friends have said, watch out because you'll have a reprise of martial law. See, I experienced martial law in the 70s. You can see from my hair. And I was telling my friend, 'My goodness, at this age I'm not sure if I'm up to another martial law.'

And therefore, this is a challenge to the young people. You know, the signs are there, the signs are growing, and we cannot afford a second martial law. And so, who are the targets? The targets are clear: the classless, yung walang tsinelas; and gender, the women--the two most vulnerable sectors of society.

And since I said the women are leading the charge because fortunately or unfortunately they've chosen someone who has become a poster girl and who have a rallying point.

But the classless--or as the French say it, sans classe--don't have a rallying point; and therefore, we have to lead this charge and we have to sustain it, otherwise, second martial law. Sus, this time hindi ko na yata kaya.

De Lima: And it's not just actually martial law. It's been talked about. Of course, I've had discussions with friends. And it's being talked about. We could be looking at a revolutionary government.

The real target is revolutionary government because you know, martial law has to go through some legal obstacles--getting the concurrence of Congress, although puwedeng magawa yan. Puwedeng makuha yan because of the supermajority. But it's also subject to judicial review by the Supreme Court. Baka mahirapan, although, they can also achieve that because of the constitutional requirements and limitations. And the consequence limited lang naman yun, you know, the suspension of privilege of writ of habeas corpus.

Revolutionary government is far broader. Revolutionary government would be much more totalitarian because it is extra-constitutional. If it's extra-constitutional, he can do anything. He would have absolute power. He can abolish key institutions like Congress, like the courts. They can introduce a new political system, legal system, social system, economic system because of this bias towards the left.

I hate to say this, but we're looking at that. It's not remote. Magagalit na naman sila. Sigurado titirahin na naman ako.

I don't mind. I can say anything. I'm a human being. I'm a free human being. We are creatures of free will. We can think anything we want and we can say anything we think. Right? And I'm thinking that. And I have to articulate on that. I have the right to express it.

That's what worries me, that is more scary: revolutionary government. Not martial law. So ladies and gentlemen, it's a real threat to our democracy so we cannot remain silent.

AM 10: Good morning ma'am. Before asking my question, I honor you because I heard your last statement. And you said you're using this point of attack against your human dignity as a take-off point for your advocacy.

De Lima: Yes.

AM 10: And I respect you so much for that. This is actually the Paradox of the Power of Powerlessness. It is in your weakness...

De Lima: Yes, yes.

AM 10: ...that you are established on your strength. Now, having said that, I have this controversial question: Is there anything in the law...because President Duterte always is proud about his presidential immunity, and yet we hear him say, 'I will happily slaughter 3 million people. He is proud to distribute guns to policemen, and eventually, the military and order them to kill.

You know, he is a misogynist, a sexist, a megalomaniac, a psychotic. Are we just gonna look at him and take it as it is? [Applause]

Is there anything in the law, regardless of the immunity, to take him out of our sight, out of our country? He's just too proud destroying our future. So why can't we...are we just sitting? Is there anything else? I guess because of social media, we can't go do People Power because everyone else is just putting their angst in the computer. But we cannot...it's just been 100 days. And it's like masamang panaginip.

De Lima: In other words ma'am, you're asking do we have any remedy aside from just talking about it, and grieving about it, or agonizing over it. Yes, we do have remedies. Let me mention some.

Okay, let me talk first about the killings. It's not remote that the International Criminal Court will soon intervene. I just read a news item. It just came in this morning that the Chief Prosecutor of the ICC--who happens to be a woman--has already expressed deep concern, and that they are monitoring the developments in the country. That could be prelude for possible intervention. And when I say intervention of the ICC, or International Criminal Court, you know we are still part of the Rome Statute. And therefore, the ICC can always assume jurisdiction if they find enough or sufficient basis to do so.

Ano ho ba yung International Criminal Court? Under the Rome Statute, ito po yung mekanismo, ito po ang international tribunal o international body which has jurisdiction over great crimes, genocide, crimes against humanity. It's not technically a war crime what is happening. It's not technically a genocide what is happening. But I take the position that is shared by many--that we are actually looking at acts against humanity or crimes against humanity.

And why is it a crime against humanity? Because of the targeted killing of a particular sector, of a particular class, widespread attack on a civilian population. widespread and systematic attack against a civilian population.

The suspected drug pushers, users, and traffickers are civilians, a segment of the civilian population.

Widespread because 3,800 kills are certainly widespread. I'm not just talking about 50, 100, 200, 500. We're now looking at thousands, and therefore it's widespread, especially that is spread all over the country.

Systematic, yes it is systematic because it is state-inspired at the very least. Of course they would always contest, 'No, it's not state-sponsored.' How can they ever say that? Okay, ayaw nila ng state-sponsored, eh di state-inspired. Pareho rin yun eh.

Look at all the pronouncements of the President, all his lieutenants like Dela Rosa. And then yung mga reports about policemen themselves doing the killings in the course of police operations. Not only in police operations, but these so-called vigilante killings. Halo-halo ito, the ones responsible for the vigilante killings, yung mga unidentified perpetrators or assailants, yung mga nakikita na lang natin na mga naka-masking tape, na merong mga cardboards saying 'huwag tularan', etc. etc. Vigilante style of killings.

So the key question is who are the vigilantes? They could be a combination of the policemen themselves, or agents, or assets, hired guns of policemen, or miyembro rin ng mga sindikato, eliminating each other, competition, or private individuals na may mga sariling kanya-kanyang motivation to kill others under the guise of the war on drugs. But I do believe na karamihan diyan are still really, police or agents of the police.

So it's systematic. It's state-inspired, if not state-sponsored. Ang ICC po kapag pumasok sila sa satin, hindi nila kailangan ng imbitasyon from the Philippine government, unlike yung mga Special Rapporteurs. Kapag mga UN Special Rapporteurs--whether it's a rapporteur on arbitrary execution, summary killings, or rapporteur on internal displacement, etc. etc--these special procedures, they call that special procedures, the UN Special Rapporteurs, they can can only come in and investigate if officially invited by the host country. But not with respect to the assumption of jurisdiction by the ICC.

The ICC, through its chief prosecutor, can always come in once they make a preliminary determination that there is basis to intervene because the case--the prevailing situation--falls under the cases cognizable by the ICC.

And once it happens, presidential immunity does not apply.

Now, kahit po itong presidential immunity sa ibang kaso, ina-announce ko na po, although I do not want to go into the details because the lawyers advised me, 'Wag na munang sabihin ang mga detalye because you will be telegraphing our punches.' Right? But I'm definitely testing that doctrine of presidential immunity.

AM 11: Just a short follow through ma'am.

De Lima: Yes?

AM 11: As a former Secretary of DOJ, can you give us some guidance? If we know of specific cases, how can we document that and where do we submit it?

I know a few, and I know for a fact that before this person was killed, we were chatting. And he told me in the FB chat, because he was helping a woman who was accused of being a drug user and she had to bail out. And yet the chief of police of Binondo, still wanted P50,000 from the family--extortion. It's either you get killed or you go to jail. If you pay, you get killed, because baka mabisto.

A week later, because this guy was looking for a lawyer, he was shot. But in the meanwhile, in the chat message, he told me it is the chief himself and his hitmen who have killing people here in Binondo. That's a fact.

Where do I submit this so that the ICC and other people can keep this on file?

De Lima: Yes, for one, preserve those files, preserve those records. In the meantime, you can submit that to CHR, you can submit that to me. And then once the...whether it's the UN Special Rapporteur on summary executions, because I think the government has already extended its invitation. That's a very welcome development.

My only hope is that they should be given leeway, latitude, independent, free movement, free access to witnesses, to victims, to prospective witnesses. And we can expect to UN to do that. We can expect the UN, whether this is the UN Special Rapporteur, or the ICC Special Prosecutor, or any other investigator from the UN, we can expect UN to do an independent, partial, and thorough investigation--something that we hardly expect from local authorities.

So submit them first po sa CHR because the CHR has been investigating some of these already. I know similar cases na ine-extort muna simply because drug users sila o dati silang drug users in exchange for not filing cases against them. Extort, extort, extort hangga't pinatay na lang para hindi na sila tinuturo. See, there are several of those.

There are similar instances. Because I always believe na yung mga drug situation po, problema sa mga communities natin, dun sa mga ilan-ilang lugar, hindi ho dapat yan lumala kung hindi mismo yung local government, executive, or local police ang kasama diyan--either as part of the syndicate itself or protectors, or coddlers of its local drug syndicate.

Marami dun sa mga pinapatay, lalo na yung mga vigilante-like killings, na actually mga assets sila dati ng mga pulis sa mga anti-drug operations. Since asset sila, may mga nalalaman sila na mga kalokohan ng mga pulis, like the testimony of one of the two witnesses that we presented in the Senate inquiry, dun sa Antipolo. Assets yung kanyang mga magulang, sumasama-sama sila sa mga raid-raid, at sa kanila pinapa-repack yung mga shabu, at nagbibigay din sila ng P50,000 each time. Pinatay sila kasi maraming alam. Ituturo sila. There are several of those cases.

So there's hope for the truth and justice for the victims of extrajudicial killings if these UN probers would start coming in. We should all welcome that.

AM 12: Good afternoon. So my question is, as an International Studies student, we've been very aware of what is happening in court, what is happening in the media. And there are these testimonies; there are these drug violators in the Bilibid prison who are testifying against you that you are either behind them or with them.

And now these testimonies, they've been...they convinced a--I'm not in a position to say the majority--but a big population in the Philippines. As a senator who talked about dignity today, how will you convince the people who were convinced by these testimonies that it's very hard for these groups of people to ano eh, just close their ears, turn their backs from what they heard because it's a huge...there are a lot of these drug abusers who are saying that it is because of you who are like this, like that. So as a lawyer, you should know po that it's easy to persuade the judge and the audience with all of these "factual" testimonies.

Now my question to you is po: How would you convince the people who were convinced with these testimonies? Thank you.

De Lima: Thank you. My best defense is always the truth. Of course there are ways of presenting the truth. And I'd be doing that dun sa mga kaso na pina-file nila sa akin. And that's why I'm doing this. I'm presenting myself to the people. I'm telling the people: I can see anyone straight in the eye and tell you now that I am innocent. That is simply not true that I am involved in the drug trade in any capacity.

But look at all those so-called witnesses, these are polluted sources. A number of them are part of the Bilibid 19. Certainly they have an ax to grind against me. Kasi nga nahuli ko sila, yung mga pinagagawa nila sa Bilibid. Pinalipat ko sila sa NBI habang pinapa-renovate ko po yung Building 14. Binalik sila doon. Some nga testified, madaling mga nakumbinsi because gusto nilang makabawi sa akin.

Yung iba naman were convinced in some other ways, just like si Jaybee Sebastian, Peter Co. Wala na silang choice. And then yung iba, may mga kanya-kanyang dahilan. Because you know, one thing that is really hurting also on my part is because these so-called operators, these so-called gatherers of evidence, these so-called probers diyan sa kaso na yan, diyan sa isyu na yan, they've been trying to access everyone who they know or who they perceive to be close to me--either on a personal or professional capacity--mga dati kong staff, kahit mga current staff ko, mga dati kong bodyguard, and present bodyguards, mga dati kong mga opisyal sa DOJ, usecs., director ng Bucor, director ng NBI. Ilan-ilan sa kanila, those perceived to be close to me. Perceived lang, whether true or not that they're close to me, ina-access sila, kinakausap, kinumbinsi.

Yung iba may mga nakalkal, may nadiskubre na mga dirt, skeletons in the closet, kalokohan. In order to save their skin, yan ang kapalit. 'Hindi ka namin kakasuhan, bibigyan ka namin ng immunity, ituro mo lang si De Lima.'

And then if I am such a drug trade queen, where is the money? Wala naman silang makuha sa mga bank accounts ko, not even dummy accounts. I don't have dummy accounts. In fact, I challenged them already. If you think I have dummy accounts, and you know those accounts, I'm telling you now, tell the banks concerned to freeze those bank accounts.

And then get the details, get the particulars kung paano binuksan yang mga so-called dummy accounts na yan, sinong mga pangalan yan, mga kanino yan, paano niyo sinasabi sa akin yan? Freeze them. If you think they are my accounts, freeze them now. They should have frozen that long time ago. But the banks would not do that because they know those are not my accounts because only the real owner of the accounts can authorize the freezing. P12 to P15 billion, baka mamaya biglang hindi ko pala alam may foreign accounts na pala ako, offshore.

You know coming out with fictitious accounts is not remote. Ginawa na nila yan sa dalawa kong former staff. Biglang naging instant millionaires. May P24 million daw sa mga accounts nila. They were so shocked. And those accounts raw were mine, that they opened that for me so that maging doon ilalagay daw yung mga galing sa mga drug lords. But this staff, they went to the bank concerned, BDO. Sinabi, 'hindi po ito account niyo.' Ginamit yung ibang account, ginawang account daw nila para maituro sa akin. They can do that. They've been lying and lying just. All of these brazen lies, they can do everything, again, just to destroy me.

And the fact na until now I'm still standing up, hindi pa ako nakadapa, I think that angers him more.

AM 12: Why do you think Duterte is trying to trigger you? Is there some kind of history po?

De Lima: I said already its history--2009. He cannot take it. He cannot stand opposition. He cannot stand dissent.

MLG: So we will now...yes, there are several questions here that I would like just to ask senator to answer this briefly. So the question is pampa-relax naman po. What do you Senator in your free time, spare time? Another one: do you like any TV shows? From a student. Pampa-relax.

De Lima: I have so called stress-busters.

MLG: Wow, may we know your stress-busters?

De Lima: My dogs. I have 13 dogs! (Laughter) Various breeds. I have a favorite dog, Japanese Spitz. His name is Koko. He's so intelligent, but he's so jealous. So siya lang ang natutulog sa kuwarto ko pag gabi. Nagagalit siya, nagseselos siya kapag merong ibang aso rin na matulog sa kuwarto ko. Various breeds-- Labrador, Dachshund, Jack Russell Terrier, Chihuahua...But Koko is a Japanese Spitz. My original and favorite noon, my first ever dog--Kirby--he died 2012. Grabe noh pag nawawalan. I was so depressed for several days. His name is Kirby, he's a Golden Brown Labrador. My first ever dog--the reason why I became a dog lover since then. I think...he was just given to me. When did I get him? Namatay siya 2012. I think I got him 2006 or 2007. He passed away 2012. But now meron akong bagong paborito, it's Koko. Japanese Spitz, very, very intelligent. I miss him always. So that's my number one stress-buster.

And number two--cooking and going to the market. I'm a very good cook. Try especially my laing and my Bicol Express. I'm a Bicolana. (Applause) Iriga City. Meron ho bang mga Bicolana dito o ang mga parents Bicolana? Tiga saen kamo? Dios marhay na aga saindo agabos? Iriga City: Nora Aunor. (Laughter) So I cook good laing, Bicol Express, and several other food. When I entertain people, friends, and relatives, I do the cooking myself. Hindi ako nagpapa-cater. Mas gusto kong nagluluto. That's also one of my stress-buster.

And then singing and dancing. (Laughter and applause)

(Crowd cheer: 'Sample, sample') No, no, no, no, no, no. No! I shouldn't have said that. No. It's no longer campaign period. (Laughter) Nung campaign period, maraming nakaloko sa akin. I was able to sing in some of those. But I'd rather you do not hear me sing. Baka mabawasan yung pagtingin niyo sa akin. (Laughter) Yes, I sing and dance, but bihira na, bihira na. Nung uso yung videoke noon, madalas ako mag-videoke. Nung uso yung ballroom dancing, almost weekly. Not anymore. Seldom, very seldom na.

And driving, long distance driving. Although sinusundan pa rin ako ng back up vehicles ko with my security. But I do...so yun. And of course, my grandchildren. Although, they live separately. So those are my stress-busters. Reading, then TV. Yung mga ano, mga Law and Order, CSI. Iba-ibang Law and Order yan, di ba, Criminal Intent, etc. etc. And CSI, iba-iba rin yung CSI. Meron pang iba sa cable. And I read books, of course.

MLG: So there's a question here, what exactly are you feeling today in front of Miriam community?

De Lima: I'm so happy.

MLG: Before we end our program, yes, I would just like to read this: "Senator, we are with you in your fight." And there is this little note here. I would like to read it aloud. "Dearest Senator, I do not have much but I have this: Please be strong, stay strong. Please continue fighting. From all of us, the Youth Rosary."

De Lima: That should be more than enough. Thank you so much. Maraming salamat. Whoever gave this, thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Maraming salamat po. I'm very relieved. I feel so relieved. And I hope marami pang mga ganito na mga pagkakataon. Sa iyo na lang po ako dumudulog kasi mas importante po kayo, more than any politician.