Press Release
May 21, 2014

Transcript of Interview of Sen. Serge Osmeña

On Benhur Luy's Hard Disk

Q: Today is Benhur Luy's deadline to submit to the Senate blue ribbon committee the hard drive containing his files. But he has supposedly written the committee saying that the disk is now with the NBI...

Serge: That's probably true. You don't make several copies of your hard drive.

Q: Why did he have to wait for the deadline to inform the committee that the hard drive is no longer with him? He should have informed the Senate immediately.

Serge: Siguro in-advise siya ng lawyer niya na instead of giving it directly, ganun na lang muna. Atsaka possession I think is with the NBI.

Q: Will the Senate issue another subpoena to the NBI?

Serge: I don't know how chairman Sen. TG would want to handle this. But maybe he can just call up the NBI and ask the NBI what it would take for them to deliver that (hard drive). And kung sabihin ng NBI na 'send me a subpoena', then the Blue Ribbon committee will send them a subpoena.

Q: Pwede bang i-transfer ni Benhur Luy 'yung subpoena niya sa NBI?

Serge: No, it cannot be transferred. It will be a new subpoena directed at the NBI. The object of the subpoena, which is the hard disk drive and the recipient of the subpoena must be the one who is in possession of the evidence.

Q: Is it possible na walang kopya si Benhur Luy?

Serge: Possible, yes. To me that is probable. Kung tanungin niyo ako kung may kopya ako ng hard drive ko, sasabihin ko sa inyo wala.

Q: Hindi ba pwedeng si Benhur ang kukuha ng kopya sa NBI at siya ang magbibigay sa Blue Ribbon?

Serge: It's also possible. Anything is possible.

Q: Kung hindi maibigay 'yung digital files, would it be considered a defiance of the subpoena?

Serge: No. Because he has an excuse: it is in the possession of the NBI.

Q: Pero naghintay pa siya ng deadline eh...

Serge: You would only be speculating.

Q: What would you advise Sen. TG to do given the circumstances?

Serge: Call the NBI Director and ask how do you want me to do this. Shall I send you a subpoena?

Q: Ang sinasabi ni Benhur Luy, binigay na nila sa NBI. You cannot force the NBI to submit today?

Serge: The subpoena is addressed to Benhur. So the NBI is under pain. You know, subpoena means 'under pain'...

Q: Possible na gamitin ni Benhur Luy 'yung subpoena to ask the NBI na pahiram muna ng kopya niya kasi may subpoena nga ang Senate?

Serge: You can follow up the NBI, but that's up to him. He already wrote a letter to the Blue Ribbon, telling the Blue Ribbon, 'Go get it from the NBI.' If you want to save time, the fastest, easiest way is to pick up the phone and call up the NBI Director.

Q: The subpoena cannot be used to the NBI?

Serge: No, because nakasulat ang pangalan (niya) diyan.

Q: Sa procedure, okay lang 'yun na walang mabibigay si Benhur pero ngayon lang niya sinabi na wala?

Serge: We would have preferred otherwise, that he made an earlier, he made an earlier notice to the Blue Ribbon na nandun sa NBI, kunin na lang dun. But that's the way the world works, sometimes it doesn't conform to what we want.

Q: He cannot be disciplined or sanctioned because he did not tell the Blue Ribbon immediately and instead waited until the last minute to inform the committee?

Serge: No. He responded within the time frame. Unfortunately, the response was not what we expected.

Q: May sinasabi si Secretary de Lima na ikokonsulta daw muna sa Ombudsman kung puwede bang ibigay 'yung hawak nilang digital files. Meron pa bang dapat ikonsulta sa Ombudsman?

Serge: Hindi ko alam. I will leave that up to Sen. TG to answer, I might preempt him eh.

Q: Secretary de Lima said that when they submit the affidavit of Napoles tomorrow, magre-request sila na huwag munang i-publish dahil lalo daw nagkakagulo dahil hindi pa verified 'yung information?

Serge: We will have to discuss that in the committee. We will have to discuss that with Sen. Guingona. Where does the greater public interest lay versus the rights of the accused? You always have to make sure that the law is followed. There might already be a law on how such evidence is handled. But I am not a lawyer so I cannot answer that.

Q: Okay lang po sa inyo na huwag muna isa-publiko?

Serge: No. My principle has always been transparency. So if there is no rule on the contrary protecting the rights of the accused, I'll always release it.

Q: Affidavit lang naman po ni Napoles iyon, it can stand on its own hindi ba?

Serge: Anong affidavit lang? Wala pa nga siyang full affidavit.

Q: Affidavit ni Napoles iyon. That's what Sec. de Lima is expected to submit tomorrow. Totoo man po iyon o hindi, hindi naman po iyon pwedeng i-correct iyon hindi ba?

Serge: The secretary of justice must have valid reason in making that request. So we must consider her reasons. Hindi puwede na in theory, affidavit lang naman iyan eh...

Q: May possibility daw po na hindi matapos 'yung affidavit kasi nag-bi-bleeding daw po siya? What if they ask for another extension tomorrow?

Serge: I would leave it up to the chairman to decide because he is more closely involved in this than I am. Tingnan po natin if it is a reasonable excuse for an extension. After all, you know, if somebody hasn't finished, she hasn't finished.

Q: Gaano katagal ba dapat ginagawa ang affidavit? Serge: Depende sa volume ng information. The way I look at it, with 200 names involved, kung ako iyan, it might take me 2 years.

Q: You can't force talaga kung hindi naman talaga tapos?

Serge: Yes. Unless you're willing to accept it piecemeal. Okay, the first affidavit will include 3, the second is 10, the third affidavit is 10... you accept it piecemeal lang. I don't know if that's the way chairman Sen. Guingona would like to handle that.

Q: Ikaw sir?

Serge: Para sa akin isang buo. But then, we might wait forever.

Q: Hindi ba nababalewala ang coercive powers ng Senate: Sec de Lima asked for an extension, Benhur Luy tinuturo kayo sa NBI...

Serge: I will tell you. Kami naiipit dito kasi kami, we're conducting an investigation at the same time that the criminal justice system of the government is conducting theirs. Now, this is what I have seen in other countries: they never divulge information unless they're ready to file the charges. Here, we are being pressured to divulge the information even piecemeal because of the need for news. That's the big conflict that we have now.

The committee wants to be transparent. We don't want to be accused now or later on of having sanitized, stonewalled, etc. But basically, the way to handle an investigation is very quietly. Without having to let the public know until you're ready to file the charges. That's the way it's handled in the United States, that's the way it's handled in England and all other criminal justice systems similar to ours. Even the communists handle it that way.

Q: Pero sir, hindi nga ba binabalewala nila ang powers ng Senate kasi nga hindi nila mini-meet 'yung deadline? You don't see it that way?

Serge: Humahanap lang kayo ng reason eh for us to quarrel ? Nagtuturuan sila because they don't want it divulged, which is a very natural thing if you're conducting an investigation. Now, unfortunately because so many politicians are involved, there's now the suspicion na isa-sanitize ito.

Q: Pwedeng i-interpret na wala na kasing tiwala sa Senate kasi most of the senators were included?

Serge: No. Because the names have already been mentioned. It has nothing to do with trust in the Senate because 'yung master list lumabas na eh, eto 'yung mga detalye na lang: on what day did he come to my office to pick up the check, or the cash or what-not. These are already what we call the Bill of Particulars.

Q: Ano pa ang saysay ng subpoena kung hindi sila magko-comply?

Serge: Hindi ko alam. Maybe we'll sit in a corner and cry ? I don't know.

Q: Pero kayo po, okay lang sa inyo?

Serge: Let's take it one step at a time. Parang Sen. TG is playing a chess game and he has to, you can't think of too many moves in advance because it will waste your time. So far, I think, the next step is to call the NBI.

If he ask me now, and I have not seen him, I have not talked to him, that's what I will say: 'Pick up and the phone and call the NBI Director.'

Q: Kaya medyo nagtuturuan kasi ayaw pa nilang ilabas ang lahat ng detalye?

Serge: That's my belief. Well, if she already asked not to divulge it for one week, dun siya maiipit. Because she asked for one week. And now she's asking (for another extension)...

Q: Sir, 'yung pag-divulge ng info, si Sec De Lima naman ang nagda-divulge ng information di ba?

Serge: Generally, yes. You know, when she said 'meron akong listahan', ayun na. The pressure was on.

Q: Not too late for her to shut up?

Serge: ? You know, there's a saying: 'How do you put the toothpaste back on the tube?'

Q: Walang magagawa ang Blue Ribbon kay Benhur? Hindi siya ma-a-admonish or anything dahil hindi siya tumupad sa deadline? Serge: I don't think we would like to do that. Kasi tama naman siya kasi 'yung hard disk nandun sa NBI.

Q: Na-furnish kayo ng letter ni Benhur kay Sen. TG?

Serge: Wala. Nakita ko lang 'yung media release, hinihingi ko nga 'yung letter.

Q: Hindi kaya part ng strategy ni Benhur Luy 'yung late notice?

Serge: I don't think Mr. Luy would care if the committee has his list or not. Why would he care? As a matter of fact, binigay na nga di ba? So you'd expect the whole world to see it. As a matter of fact, I would like to ask the Inquirer where they got their information. Hindi ba galing kay Luy iyon?

Q: It was given to them April of this year...

Serge: It doesn't matter. Luy doesn't seem to care. The moment he released it, he gave it to Inquirer and to the NBI/DOJ.

Q: If he doesn't care, nung nakuha niya 'yung subpoena sinabi niya na dapat kaagad na wala sa kanya di ba? He doesn't care naman pala eh, hindi ba sir?

Serge: I don't know because you're asking me what he and his lawyers discussed. ?

Q: Why is it important for the committee to secure a copy of the digital files?

Serge: Because I think it's a bigger list. The one of Napoles is from memory, hinahabol niya kung anumang files niya ang nandun sa opisina niya. Those are a lot of files if you're going back to the year 2000.

Now, on the other hand, I am of the belief that Benhur Luy was already copying this from the beginning to his hard disk drive. So that's a more accurate list.

Q: Kung itinuturo kayo sa NBI, ipu-pursue niyo po ba sa NBI?

Serge: No. Let me say this. Our duty here is in aid of legislation, not in aid of prosecution. And I think that we have gotten substantial evidence already that would give us grounds to introduce amendments some of the laws.

Now, having said that, the Senate hearing is also a way for the public to know what is going on. So we do this in the interest of transparency. Eh kung hindi, eh di sasabihin namin sa NBI, 'Kayo na! Don't bother us anymore.' But the pressure is on the Senate to divulge more information because too many high ranking officials are involved. So we have to weigh the two, and to me, like I told you, if I have my rathers, I'd rather err on the side of being transparent.

Q: Luy's files are more complete?

Serge: It is my understanding, it's my belief that it would be that way because this is a hard disk drive which he saved from the beginning.

Q: Is there a possibility na gusto muna ng DOJ na i-file muna 'yung 2nd batch bago i-divulge?

Serge: You ask the DOJ, I cannot answer for Sec de Lima. But I think that's where they are going. And it is standard in investigations that you don't go to the public and say, 'O may nakita akong bagong evidence...' If you're going to do that, you'd already be warning the others who still have additional evidence to hide it, if they're favorable to the accused. Hinihintay iyan hanggang sa makumpleto at matapos. You go to the New York police department, to the Los Angeles police department, Sna Francisco police department, puro no comment iyan. But sometimes nape-pressure sila, 'Sir, is it true that you've found a witness?' and they'll say, 'Yes, we have found a witness.' But that's it, they won't tell the name, the sex, or anything else. It's understandable. If you just watch the movies or television, or CSI, you will see na ganun talaga. They don't go to the media right away and say, 'Hey I found this today...' You could be jeopardizing your own investigation...

Q: Yung audio file na binigay kay Sec Lacson...

Serge: That has no probative value. If it doesn't come from Napoles, if it's claimed to have come from Napoles to Jimmy Napoles then to Ping Lacson... it has no probative value to us. We cannot even say it's evidence. But the media wants a copy. Ask it from Ping!

Sec De Lima and the CA

Q: Sir, hindi pa daw po nakakalusot sa CA si Sec De Lima. Sa palagay niyo po makaka-apekto 'yun?

Serge: No, it doesn't matter. You know why? The President will keep on reappointing her until the end of his term. So it doesn't matter if she's approved or confirmed by the Commission on Appointments.

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