Press Release
March 6, 2014

TRANSCRIPT OF SEN. BAM AQUINO'S QUESTIONS IN PDAF HEARING

Sen. Aquino: Gaya po ng dati I'd like to begin with Secretary De Lima to give us some updates on the case. The last time po tayong nagkita, si Dennis Cunanan had not yet come out. Now you come back with another witness, are there other witnesses? Sabi niyo po last time, magkakaroon ng round two ng PDAF charges or even regarding 2010 to 2013 scams, you have any updates on this ma'am?

De Lima: Thank you po. Iyong sa Ombudsman po, dalawa pa lang na batches ng PDAF and then Malampaya. Iyong first batch nga po nasa PI na pero siguro po baka pong malapit na ang aksiyon ng Ombudsman dahil nga po, ay alam po nakapag-submit na ng counter affidavits ang mga respondents doon, including Dennis Cunanan and Ruby Tuason. That's without prejudice to the resolution on their pending motions to be granted immunity and to be allowed as state witnesses. Ang second batch ay nasa fact-finding pa rin po ng Field Investigation Office. Ang ginagawa po naming ngayon, ang third batch pero ang kasunduan namin ng NBI, antayin lang po namin ang aksiyon ng Ombudsman sa first batch bago kami magsampa ng panibagong batch. Iyon po ang status. Additional state witnesses wala pa po because we are being circumspect also. Kahit meron ilan-ilan na medyo nagpapadala ng feelers but we don't just really deal with them.

Sen. Aquino: Let me follow up on that question, Secretary. Why are you endorsing Mr. Cunanan as state witness.

De Lima: Base po sa evaluation namin. Kasi sieympre po pag nag-a-apply ay ini-evaluate. As a matter of fact, he tried already volunteering to be a witness against the other respondents, especially the principal ones, whom we consider as the most guilty respondents. Right before kami nag-file ng kaso sa Ombudsman, lumapit nap o siya sa amin, pero ang desisyon ko, isama po muna si Mr. Cunanan sa charge namin dahil kailangan pa pong i-evaluate ang kanyang proferred testimony para tingnan namin kung ma-sa-satisfy ang requisities ng law.

Sen. Aquino: What date was that, Secretary?

De Lima: The first batch?

Sen. Aquino: When did you file the first batch?

De Lima: September.

Sen. Aquino: You mean, before September nagfile na ng feeler si Cunanan?

De Lima: A few days before September dahil alam niyang kasama siya sa iniimbestigahan namin ng NBI at DOJ.

Sen. Aquino: With regard to Ms. Tuason, kumbaga siya whistleblower on the side of the agents of Jenny Napoles. Si Mr. Cunanan naman, what value does his testimony give to the case?

De Lima: Tulad ng na-explain niya kanina, mayroon pong mga mahalaga siyang sinabi tungkol po sa mambabatas mismo, lalo na iyong tatlong senador, na sila ang pumipili talaga ng NGOs at nagpa-follow up po sila para ma-expedite ang release ng pondo sa kanila. Binerify rin po niya ang mga dokumento, na karamihan po doon, na-submit na po naming noon pero hindi kami nag-rely mismo sa sinubmit namin that was part of our testing him, the process of testing and vetting him na hindi puwedeng mag-rely lang kami sa sinasabi mo gusto naming makakita ng dokumento na magpapatunay na talagang may mga alam ka diyan sa mga transaksyon na iyan, in the sense, doon sa pakikipil doon sa opisina ng mga mambabtas. Iyong extent ng kanilang pakikialam dahil nga nakita naman natin sa ibang ebidensiya, sa ibang testimonya, na mayroon silang porsiyento, na mayroon silang kickback.

Sen. Aquino: In the affidavit of Dennis, dalawa ho iyon, may documentary evidence at mayroon rin pong tawag o pong phone call.

De Lima: Gaya noong ipinaliwanag ni Sen. Miriam, that is definitely a direct evidence. When you say direct evidence, when one testifies personally and directly, one has to rely on his or her on her own senses. I side na pag personal nang nakikita is just one of them, hearing is another such sense. So there is direct evidence here.

Sen. Aquino: Let me go to that particular instance na nakausap mo ang mga senador. I'll call you Decu. Alam niyo iyang si Decu, mas matanda sa akin iyan pero isa ring student leader yan noong kapanahunan ko. Noong panahon na nakausap mo ang mga senador, si Benhur yong nagbigay sa iyo ng telepono. Tama ba iyon?

Dennis Cunanan: Yes your honor. Iyong pangalawa kay Sen. Revilla tsaka iyong una kay Sen. Estrada.

Sen. Aquino: Benhur do you concur with that? Did you call the senators directly or call their chief of staff. Sino ang tinawagan mo non?

Benhur: Sir dito sa Upper House, si Pauleen Labayen po kay Sen. Estrada at si Atty. Richard Cambre kay Sen. Revilla po.

Sen. Aquino: So you have their numbers?

Benhur: When I was illegally detained, na-confiscate lahat ng cellphones ko.

Sen. Aquino: So wala kang record ng tawag na iyon?

Benhur: Wala na po pero baka puwede pong i-subpoena ang telcos because I memorized the number na ginagamit ko.

Sen. Aquino: Was that prepaid phone or postpaid?

Benhur: Postpaid.But I remember Atty. Richard Cambre has a Smart or Globe pero di ko na matandaan iyong number mismo.

Sen. Aquino: I'm sure Secretary De Lima, have you subpoenaed his phone records already just to prove these phone calls did happen?

De Lima: The NBI is taking care of that your honor. They have taken steps in preparation for trial.

Sen. Aquino: Let me ask about that particular instance. A number of the senators, especially Sen. Estrada, has vehemently denied that he has even met you or spoken to you. Hindi ka daw niya nakilala ever at hindi ka man niya nakausap. Which is why I want to know if there is real evidence showing that conversation did take place. Baka you can tell us about that conversation at kung mayroon ka nga bang proof regarding the veracity or the truth to that conversation.

Cunanan: Your honor, at that time, Benhur was lobbying for a project in their behalf dahil iyong NGO niya ang nagpo-process ng PDAF ng dalawa. And I was telling him na it has to go through a degree of processing, iyong pina-follow up niya. Tapos siya niya, tatawagan ko ho iyong opisina ng legislator para kausapin kayo. Sabi ko, sige. I was even doubting if he could really call. And he did. Noong nakausap niya si Labayen kasi noong pinasa sa akin, sinabi niya director kausapin kayo ni senator. Siyempre shocked ako, pinasa. Sinabi sa akin, ano pang problema niya bakit hindi niyo pa tapusin dahil inaantay na iyan sa ground. Sabi ko, senator, pina-process na po naming at hindi ganoon kadali iyon. Doon kami natapos. Walang duda na hindi siya iyon, napapanood natin sa pelikula at napapanood natin sa TV ang kanyang personality kaya kabisado na natin ang boses. Ang sumunod, pinalow-up iyong kay Senator Revilla so iyong kausap niya si Atty. Cambre on the phone. Then, Atty. Cambre said may way ba para ma-fasttrack, sabi ko inaayos naman. Tapos, hinold ako for a while, si senator... parang magtatagal pa ba iyan, PDAF ko naman iyan. Authorized naman iyong NGO kaya puwedeng i-process niyo na iyan, madaliin niyo na iyan. Your honor, iyong circumstance na iyon, hindi ko lang madetalye ang exact... it happened a long time ago. You don't get phone calls and you don't get to talk everyday to senators.

Sen. Aquino: Iyan ba ang unang beses or nakausap mo na sila before?

Cunanan: Iyong kay Sen. Estrada, iyon ang unang time, kay Sen. Revilla pangalawa.

Sen. Aquino: for those instances, kayo ang diretsong magkausap and Benhur did not hear the conversation? Pinasa lang niya ang telepono. So definitely the phone records will be quite important in terms of testing the veracity of that. At that year, anong taon iyan?

Cunanan: Around 2008.

Sen. Aquino: Was that the start of dealings with the Napoles NGO or marami na ho iyan?

Cunanan: Marami na ho iyan.

Sen. Aquino: At what point na nagka-inkling ka illegal ang nangyayari?

Cunanan: What happened is, at the height of things I got sidelined. So I got focused on office work...

Sen. Aquino: Can you give us a timeline Decu?

Cunanan: 2007 kasi your honor, mayroon nang memo na may alternate signatory na ako.

Sen. Aquino: So hindi na ikaw pumirma diretsa?

Cunanan: Mangilan-ngilan na lang, kung dadaan sa akin, most likely iyong ano na lang, retention na lang ang hinahabol. Kaya maliit-liit na lang ang nakikita ko. Pero hindi malalaki. And at that time, honestly, kung titingnan mo ang sitwasyon na iyon, parang the legislators, iyong senators, sila ang nag-endorso ng NGO, dinala nila iyon. Halal sila ng taumbayan, sa punto ko, iyong pagdududa pero isipin mo na rin, may gagawin na rin ito, may magagawa most likely iyan.

Sen. Aquino: Definitely, noong lumabas na ghost projects ito, nagulat ka ba na na-validate ang iyong haka-haka?

Cunanan: As early as 2010, when we started investigating on this, wala pang special audit. Noong dumating ang special audit, tinurnover naming lahat. Kung may tinatago man ako o kung may kaparte ako sa mga naunang iyon, bakit ko ibibigay ang dokumento namin. Bakit ako magko-cooperate? Full cooperation ang ginawan namin plus we turned over all documents including the one we did the blacklisting. Doon nila inumpisahan kung ano nangyari.

Sen. Aquino: I would just like to get a timeline. Nagsimula ang transaction in 2007 or earlier pa?

Cunanan: Around that time, your honor. Seven eight ang peak nila. And then it stopped.

Sen. Aquino: And by 2010, you turned over all of the documents?

Cunanan: Yes, your honor.

Sen. Aquino: But by that time you turned over the documents, malakas na ang kutob mo na may nangyayari? Why would you turn over the documents kung di malakas...

Cunanan: Yes your honor, kasi walang submission ng reports na ni-request namin uli. Kasi gusto naming Makita sa ground kung anong impact ang nangyari sa funds na ginawa. Kasi as head of office now, I have something to say na because of this utilization, ito ang inabot at ito ang nangyari. Pina-check ko talaga.

Sen. Aquino: Sa pag-check ninyo, talagang wala?

Cunanan: Mayroon kaming nakita pero hindi na namin natapos dahil sa special audit. Masaya kami na nagkaroon ng special audit dahil ngayon hindi lalabas na may ulterior motive ako as new director general in inspecting all these things. Dahil kung hindi natuloy ito, ang maging kaso ko harassment dahil sasabihin nila bakit ko sila binubusisi e tapos na nakapag-liquidate na. At least with the special audit, they were able to compare the reports among implementing agencies at doon nakita ang conspiracy at anomalies, kasi ang report na sinubmit nila sa TRC, ay iyon din ang report na sinubmit doon sa iba. That's when all these things were certified in special audit.

Sen. Aquino: And this was in 2013?

Cunanan: Na nilabas po your honor.

Sen. Aquino: If you look at the time, nagsimula iyong illegality or iyong panahon na nagla-lobby sa inyo si Benhur noong 2007. And by the end of the third year, by that time, according to your affidavit, na-sideline ka na but its still ongoing. May kutob ka nang may nangyayari kaya by 2010 na naging director general ka na, pinaimbestigahan mo ito sa COA. Tama iyon di ba?

Cunanan: Yes your honor.

Sen. Aquino: I guess a lot of people are questioning, unlike Mrs. Tuason na may inamin na pagkakamali. In fact, may binalik pang pera. In your case, you're insisting that you're innocent. Ako, kung sinabi mong wala kang tinanggap na pera, I'm sure na DOJ will investigate that and will verify that. Kung mayroon ka mang pagkakamali, ay you should have done something earlier na hindi umabot sa bilyun-bilyon iyong nawalang pera. I know that you tried to correct that when you became the head. But earlier, didn't you think you have done something as early as 2008 and 2009?

Cunanan: Your honor, I was deputy. I have limited powers. Just the same, I am always referring to the COA report. Kung titingnan niyo ang COA report, iyong regular audit namin, wala kang makitang adverse pero makikita mo doon may mga underlying issues na sinasabi. Call po iyon ng director general at that time na check something. Ako naman, hinahanap ko iyong mga adverse. Kapag may adverse, I'll bring it up. Not until iyong lumabas ang special audit na nakitang marami palang naging anomalous transactions. On my part, your honor, if you will allow, I'm not just looking at that, I'm not focused on the PDAF. I'm trying to make sure that all these people that we were able to convince to stay in the office after rationalization, from 699 we were down to 161 with 99 components at that time. May level of anxiety if we will survive or not. We are trying to make things work in terms of our regular operational functions.

Sen. Aquino: On that note Decu, let me ask how many people were involved in the implementing agency sa scam na ito. Kung ikaw sinasabi po, hindi ka kasama of course may mga nabigyan sila Benhur ng pera. In fact, that might be in their previous affidavit. Out of the 192 employees ng TRC, tingin mo ilan talaga ang kasangkot sa PDAF scam?

Cunanan: Your honor, iyong naka-charge ngayon walo kami. I don't believe na lahat kaming naka-charge doon ay guilty. People will be coming out eventually. Lalabas din nang malinaw ang kanilang participation at ang kanilang involvement.

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